# UTM & the Future of Automated Skies

- Event: NestGen ’23
- Published: March 23, 2023
- Length: 38:33
- Watch: https://nestgen.org/library/watch/gNCS69fIbyg/

> The transcript of a recorded NestGen session, for reading or for use with an AI tool. It comes from the video's
> captions; automatic captions can mishear names and terms.

## About this session

Watch Philip talk about how uncrewed traffic can be safely incorporated into manned airspace, allowing for subsequent commercial advantages.

## Transcript

**[0:08]** thank you hello everyone welcome to another exciting session of national 23 the industry's largest stone autonomy Summit audience before we begin it would be great if you could let us know where you're joining from what your what do you do and what excited you about this session today we will be exploring the exciting and rapidly evolving world of unmanned traffic management UTM and its role in shaping the future of automated Skies with the drones being increasingly used for both commercial and personal purposes the need for safe and efficient management of air traffic has become more critical than ever before we'll explore the benefits and challenges of UTM and its potential to revolutionalize how we use drones in our daily lives to discuss the exciting potential of unmanned aerial systems I would like to welcome to the stage Philip Binks head of air traffic management at altitude angel with over 20 years of experience in aviation Philip has a deep

**[1:13]** understanding of ATM and airspace and a wealth of knowledge on integrating drones safely into our airspace prior to joining altitude Angel he worked as a remote pilot rbas domain expert and solution architect at nads where he played a pivotal role in several high profile programs including the UK's Pathfinder program and the icoarpass panel with his extensive background and unrivaled expertise Philip is a true leader in field of drone air traffic management and we are thrilled to have him as a guest speaker today before I pass it on to Phil I would like to share a few housekeeping rules please type in your questions in the Q a tab of the session and it will be answered at the end of the presentation the session is getting recorded and will be published soon we also have an audio to Angel booth in the Expo please make sure you visit it finally please remember to capture your favorite moment of the session and share it on Twitter and Linkedin by using hashtag nelson23 and tagging FlytBase few lucky

**[2:19]** people who who share might have a surprise in store there's an ongoing poll during the session please participate I would also like to thank DJI our title sponsor and volatile's platinum sponsor for their support with that over to you Phil oh yeah good afternoon or good morning good evening and wherever you are in the world thank you very much for inviting me to come along today um if you just wait a second I just need to share a screen or share my presentation and uh we'll get on with the uh with the presentation so stand by one moment as people tell you who I work with I'm absolutely rubbish with technology thank goodness I have a great set of great great team here Alfred angel that has supported everything I do um look thank you very much and um what I'll be just talking about primarily initially I'll be talking about the company for those people who don't know altitude Angel and then I'll be talking about a particular element of altitude Angel is what we call our Arrow Technology and how that is supporting uh Beyond visual line of site operations so um altitude Angel then we're we're eight years old um founded by a gentleman

**[3:23]** called Richard Parker he's um he used to work for Microsoft really knows his technology um all the computer stuff and um very much enjoyed that side of um of the business but then also it got started getting into drones and how to fly drones and where to fly drones and of course this is where the complications started to start to evolve and he's like as a Lamer that's a person who hasn't been brought up in this industry this aviation industry how do I know where I can or cannot operate a drone where is it safe or is it unsafe to operate a drone and yeah even if you're within the industry to go and look at the air navigation order all through these books and and Publications it can be extremely difficult to understand where you should or shouldn't operate a drone so I just thought how can I bring technology into this how can I find a simple way of putting all the information in one place and make it really simple for people to understand where they can operate their drones safely I'm not very well started back in 2014 he came up with this idea and we have a drone

**[4:24]** safety map now and you can log on that and you can see exactly where you can and can operate her um and drone safely so from there then in the last eight years we've grown to a company of over 45 employees now and we'll be growing a lot more it says they're up to 50 in 2022 we're looking to go to about probably up to about 70 now in 23. the number of flights we have we have about 50 000 flights a month being input into what we call our Guardian UTM operating system so the thing we need to know about this is these are voluntary flights none of these are mandatory flights this is the industry trying to encourage safe and correct behaviors and getting people to submit a flight plan and then they could be disseminated to the appropriate authorities and people can understand what is going on in the airspace and understand the issues around them and improve safety and right from the outset this company was set up is is all a was always aimed at improving Aviation safety so we can access this drone safety map and all this information 150 student

**[5:27]** countries we have three National deployments but we have one Mission and that is purely to enable um equitral and fair access for all airspace users to enable drone operators on crude Aviation to access the airspace now we treat it a lot of people treat UTM as in um unmanned traffic management we look at it slightly differently from that we call it unified traffic management at the end of the day we have a single Sky which everybody needs to use everybody wishes to share so we need to have a look we need to understand how uncrew and crude Aviation and access the airspace safely and operate together we want integration rather than segregation I said today we're going to be focusing on our Arrow Technology um the aim of Arrow Technology is to enable Beyond visual line of sight operations and for those people who are sort of new to the industry I'll just give you a quick uh brief is that up until now we had a thing called V loss operation so that's a

**[6:32]** visual line site operations that meant the operator with a drone operator has to be able to see the drone at all times to ensure that the Drone isn't been creating a hazard to other airspace users and is doing as expected is operating as expected or Philip solido interrupt about I think we cannot see your screen we can only see the first slide if you're oh okay right let me just stop sharing and let me have another go at that see this is where I need a techie to come and help me right let me have another go um okay so we have then this thing called Beyond visual line of sight so this is the the problems with your Beyond Vision line of sight is that basically the Drone operator the pilot can no longer see the airframe so we need to be able to make sure that the Drone operator make sure the Drone is behaving as expected and it is no longer and it is ensuring that the Drone is not being hazardous to other airspace

**[7:33]** users and also to people on the ground so how do we make sure that happens how on Earth do we to enable this and so obviously you've got to go through your civilization Authority your local or National Aviation authority to try and get approval for these operations to have to take place well we'll find at the moment actually it's getting permits and planning and approvals for this is extremely extremely difficult so I mean how it so we're looking at this problem after danger we're looking at this problem and say how do we take some of that stress and problems and issues that drone operators face away from them and we will try and solve that problem and this is what we're trying to do with arrow with our Arrow Technology so why is it so important then BV loss operations why is this so significant well quite simply this title here that the EU bleed by 2030 this is going to generate an industry just in the EU alone of 14.5 billion euros and up to 145

**[8:35]** 000 jobs so that's a significant significant uh volume of a huge significant Market this place is growing and if we look in the the graphic just below that we can see there we've got Logistics Logistics by Far and Away the largest opportunity we're seeing um which potentially can use is beyond visual line of sight capability and since we've set up our Arrow Technology and we're setting up this Skyway project we have a lot of we're having a lot of companies who are going to be following this route which I'll talk about in a minute a little bit later um wanting to participate in the corridor once they're starting to hear about it they're getting more and more interested about how they can actually access a corridor and wish that uh to use our Arrow Technology and we're finding um initially uh we're sort of getting medical Logistics we have a thing called the National Health Service here in the UK and we're getting they are very very interested in adoption of drones to help with um help

**[9:36]** with various elements or logistic problems that they have we have a lot of centralization of pathology Labs we might not have them at every single hospital so how can we get pathology samples from the hospital to the Pathology Lab very very quickly and as we all know I think most places in the world are suffering with the same problem congestion Road congestion is getting worse and worse and worse so but you look up at the sky the sky seems pretty empty so is there something we can do like getting using this Sky to help out the logistics and it's certainly gaining an awful lot of momentum and incredible amount of Interest so with that I'm just going to show you a short video this video is uh just demonstrates what we're doing here in the UK under our future flight challenge project forgive me this is a promotional video so I apologize it comes across as a bit of a sales pitch but it's the best video we have and it's the easiest way to actually explain exactly what we're doing

**[10:39]** in the 1800s the rail network expansion field significant industrial growth connecting towns and Naval ports together called revolutionary efficiencies to the movement of goods and people spawning entirely new Industries and businesses today we begin the next Industrial and Commercial Revolution automated flight Skyway system is tab at work of super highways up to 10 kilometers wide this main route spanning 265 kilometers between reading and Coventry soon time sensitive transportation of medical items and organs fire medical and police scenarios as well as the delivery of high value low volume Goods because can start to be moved by automated unlocking the vast potential of drones to transform lives and revolutionize business Skyway has safety and privacy at its and its powerful sensors on the ground looking up detect crude and uncrewed Aviation

**[11:43]** traffic and create a real-time moving map of the sky above which is relayed to the Skyway controller in the cloud where it is used to provide automated air traffic control for drones flying on the Super Highway preventing collisions drones can enter or exit the Skyway anywhere along the Route bringing access to millions of businesses and citizens automated flight anywhere everyone just imagine so there we go we have a list of some of our partners in this and I think it's only right to actually mention them um I think one of the the interesting Partners is um is BT so we're setting up towers and I call uh BT has a lot of cellular phone networks so we're partnering with BT and they're able to provide social network Towers in order to deploy the appropriate sensors on onboard each Tower to um to

**[12:44]** enable this Beyond visual line of site activities to take place um I'm not sure about other countries of the world but um putting more and more Towers up across the countryside um you get a lot of pushback from a lot of um communities get a lot of pushback and yet more on Psychic Towers so this is where we're trying to utilize the available technology or the available networks we have today so here we have then that this this Arrow Technology it's all around deploying um the appropriate sensors um in order to cover the suitable area so the corridor is going to be about eight kilometers wide and we approach we get a customer off the shelf products coach products the appropriate sensors and display and correction um put them out across the 155 miles of corridors to enable uh safe operations would be the loss operations now the clever bit dare I say is in the office here where we've got a lot of very

**[13:45]** very clever Engineers to bring all of this data together as you can imagine all of these sensors on a mast there's quite a lot of data being thrown around and these guys are able to bring it all together to provide a single picture of Truth and and what it is we need to try and do is having multiple Sensors how have you know whether if you have three sensors picking up an airframe flying through the sky how do you know whether it's one airframe being picked up by three sensors or is it three aircraft three separate aircraft being picked up by the three sensors and because there's always a time lag with all the information that's coming in so we need to work all that little clever bit out to make sure we understand exactly what's going on in the airspace because we need to get this single point of Truth to understand that now the way we're dealing with all this is um we want to ensure that we enable a low barrier to entry now the purpose of that is is it enables to enables us to open up a

**[14:47]** business case or enables industry to open up a business case if you can get the cost of Entry as low as possible then more business opportunities and more use cases can be adopted and adopt this technology and that's what we're finding with when we're having conversations with industry at the moment industry is that they don't want to Fork out for huge big very very big drones with all the sensors on to be able to actually able to detect everything that's going on in the airspace and to understand that airspace is dynamic and the changes to the airspace airspace restrictions closures of airspace so how is it we can keep that the the Drone itself relatively simple and focusing on the actual payload itself delivery of the payload and we will deal with everything else after danger will deal with absolutely everything else going on so this is the kind of the balance that we need to do when we when we start dealing with all these kind of bits and pieces as I said airspace is dynamic so as we travel along the airspace we may get restrictions of airspace something popping

**[15:48]** up airspace closures or no towns which is which will affect flight so we have this real-time information being is coming in Guardian UTM will look at it assess it in relation to a flight plan and adapt the flight plan accordingly in order to make sure the Drone has the shortest and most efficient flight to carry out its uh activities task is delivery service I'm trying to call the as I said the the lowest if we can keep the cost down to a low point of entry it does mean more industry is going to be interesting or actually going on so we have then we have these uh these towers set up but typically of course you you're never going to get a tower in the right place or somebody just off the highway the Super Highway will suddenly want uh have access to it so we have they're not quite in coverage so what we've done is we we've allowed uh we've got a mobile system our Arrow van which we have it's a mobile capability

**[16:48]** now there we have effectively the same sensor array as we would do on a fixed Tower um however the issues we face um is we're not on each of these towers we don't necessarily have the same sensor array because it all comes down to the complications or the complexity of the airspace or even the Topography of the ground and therefore we must be able to change the centers and adapt the chat sensors to meet the requirements of that bit of airspace so if you're operating a drone or we have a super highway trancing area a rural area not a lot um not a small community is very very underpopulated area actually your your sensor array probably doesn't have to be as sophisticated as if you wish to have a drone operation taking place in an urban environment in the city and stuff like this because of the safety hazards of operating drone in that City you have potential uh far far greater Hazard to people on the ground and other people in the sky so we need to think about those sets

**[17:51]** of arrays so we have this mobile solution but of course we don't want 20 different sensors on this mobile solution because one it gets very very heavy on the tower too it uses huge amounts of power and three just makes things a lot more complicated so as when I spoke to the British army about this they they just said well it's kind of a golf bag isn't it so this mobile technology is treated as a golf bag so if I'm going out to play a game of golf and I say right I want to go and hit X number of yards I delve into my bag pick out the right club and hopefully hit that ball golf ball and it'll go the correct distance the way I play golf it probably won't but to anybody who's quite good at golf it probably does and that's how we look at this mobile facility that we've got we look at the environment we're going to be operating in the environment the drones are going to be operating in and then we can work out actually what sensors need to be put on there and we can effectively plug in it's all modular plug on the right kind of sensors the mask goes up and we provide the appropriate situation awareness for safe drones operations taking place

**[18:52]** now remember this is all about integration not segregation so that is why this is so important that we get this right integration is scalable and 40 segregation is not scalable so we have this mobile we have this mobile facility that's going on um and as I say it's it's taken quite a lot of interest which picked up quite a lot of interest now on the left hand side here a few bullet points it's it's it can be a temporary um expansion to the Super Highway as I mentioned something's just off the Super Highway you know it's just outside the eight kilometer wide uh Highway itself how can we bridge that Gap to uh to help that industry out help that company out and of course one of these things can be used but likewise we have a site surveying as well you get a lot of logistic not Logistics you get a lot of civil engineering Works where I have a big a big civil engineering project at the moment hs2 here in the UK now they've used drones uh for

**[19:52]** a lot of surveying activities but when we start to go down that route from more and more civil engineering companies will wish to use drones we can simply set up one of these things and all of a sudden we can have an eight kilometer wide area I suppose rather than a rather than a corridor we can start establishing areas and we can maintain a situation awareness for BV loss operations in that area to support something like a site survey or this mobile unit and also a thing called pop-up UTM this is an activity that we did a number of years ago but it can be integrated into our Arrow Technology whereby if you whatever age a natural disaster and you lose all ground Networks you can quite simply set up an arrow Tower and set up a situation awareness and understand what is going on in that airspace out to about um eight kilometers five miles or so so it can be done as a very very temporary measure to fix a hole while you've lost all ground networks and then we'll use satellite relays or it can be

**[20:54]** done from many or any other elements or Industries as you say on the on the right hand side there's a lift list of benefits that these things bring which I won't read into now because obviously you guys this sounds all quite easy but dare I say it there have been quite a lot of challenges in this um not first but unsurprisingly we have to have challenges around regulation what we're trying to do is new it is completely different there have been other um other projects around the world this uh who trying to establish a corridor whether that's in New York state and also there's another project in the UK that tries to set up corridors a Beyond visual line of site corridor however what they've done is the way they've approached it the cost to set that Corridor up is absolutely huge it's vast and therefore we're trying to find an affordable way and therefore

**[21:57]** cost affected and and to enable industry to grow how can we do that and there are lots and lots of regulatory challenges there and because of regulators hadn't approached this before this is all new their effect learning along with us and so we're asking sort of guidance we're working very very closely with the regulators and I'll give you a quick example of one of the problems that we have faced today firstly it's using camera equipment now we know camera technology is very very good but anything in our regulations in our air navigation orders and stuff like that we need to say the camera is the equivalent of a human eyeball but there's no calculation to say hey the human eyeball is this good therefore your camera must meet this measurement it's all about well yeah that's good is that right isn't that right so there's a lot of trials that we need to do we've done that in our test Corridor to bring the evidence together to save the civilization Authority here we go with the cameras we spotted all of this with a human eye we only spotted

**[23:01]** this therefore can we say that this camera is better than the human eye and so we have those kind of conversations another one is vertical separation and it may sound really Bonkers really it's virtual separation we're already dealing with first 400 feet at the moment we're limited Beyond Vision liner side below 400 feet we want to keep it out of um the where crude aircraft for operating primarily I know we do get aircraft operating below for 400 feet but the majority are operating above but vertical separation is a real challenge because today the way drones operate is they tend to measure the height of their operation from their starting place so they put their starting elevation at 0.0 and they can operate up to 400 feet above that starting point But as soon as you start to go beyond visual line of sight you get many many drones operating along 155 miles of Cory loss guess what everybody's starting elevation is going to be different so remember he's measuring from a

**[24:01]** different point how do you know you've got vertical separation as aircraft are passing each other or as drones are passing each other so that's a real challenge there's no Universal um agreement about how we're going to measure vertical separation we could go down the mandatory or crude Aviation of using Regional pressure settings and each verti Port has its own pressure setting just as you get at an airport and we use qfe qnh and those kind of things but this is still to be decided now at the moment with the volume to traffic the way we have gone around this is to basically treat everything is on the same level so you'll never go over above each other we'll keep everything as basically it's at the same level so we'll end up with horizontal separation rather than vertical separation but to use the airspace effectively we're going to have to think about this vertical separation of how we're going to crack that and finally then we need to think about them is is engagement now there's a lot of excitement around this that there is a lot of societal benefits so when we speak about the NHS when we speak about the police and the fire service

**[25:04]** using these kind of Technologies people are really engaged in and around this however having said that there's also a lot of question marks uh around the noise issues the privacy issues other airspace users whether it's the military emergency service helicopters so on and so forth so it's absolutely Paramount that we may end up parallel conversations to make sure we bring these people along for them to understand that what we're doing is safe and we're not going to adversely affect them and these drones don't make the same amount as noise as an A380 or a triple seven landing at Heathrow or getting everyone for Heathrow or a helicopter getting a airborne and stuff like that the electrification of these aircraft is a lot quieter but we must demonstrate this we must prove that this is the case and so there are lots and lots of local owned Community engagement to bring them along for them to understand that all of this is going on so ultimately this all comes together what is it we're trying to do we're trying to enable automated flight we're trying to help drone operators streamline the process that we'll take the detection avoid

**[26:06]** issues or concerns and we'll manage the Drone safely going through the airspace we provide that situation awareness for people to use that single point of Truth to understand everything that's going on in the airspace that everybody can make an informed decision and ultimately what we're trying to do is have on demand automated flights everywhere and so far this is this has gained a huge amount of Interest not just here in the UK but many many regions around the world so we're really really excited about how this goes on and hopefully well in the next 18 months we'll have 155 miles of it in the UK and hopefully that will quickly spread to other regions of the world okay that's all I have for that there are contact details um I'll stop sharing so you can see me because I don't know if you can see me or not um and if there are any questions I'm open to questions um please feel free to ask yes oh thank you Philip first of all very much for for this uh wonderful explanation

**[27:08]** of the technology and uh the arrow project so we we have questions coming in uh one question we have is uh I'll read it out to you does Arrow support satellite connectivity to complement the mobile network connectivity to create redundant connectivity to ensure seamless uh a communication yeah absolutely we can do that we've gone somewhere with satellite technology already um we did this thing uh called pop-up UTM we're just uh actually in Turkey where we had a drone operating I think it's um 80 kilometers away from Ankara so the ground control sessions in Ankara we had the the temporary restricted area about eight kilometers away where we had drones operating in there and then we broadcast it all back to the UK in Reading we're our head offices so we could see everything so the key to this is yeah we've got that satellite technology we work within Master for that one and um a Texan and uh we demonstrated how that could work and um we wanted to try that demonstration really for a natural Hazard area natural disaster areas I'll just say

**[28:08]** when you've got no ground cover at all all your ground networks have gone how can we enable crude and uncrewed aircraft operating the same bit of airspace providing this complete situation awareness of what's going on and and this is how we just demonstrated so satellite technology absolutely this really is the key to um to moving forward with with Beyond visual line of sight especially in those remote areas thank you Philip we have another question from Gary uh Gary's asking will general aviation and model aircraft flies be affected by this by the super highways would there be a cost or restriction for hobby Flyers absolutely not so that that is the that is one of the most important things um so when we're talking and I'm putting this project together um here in the UK what we had was in order to enable to allow Beyond visual line of site operations to take place they had to take place in segregated airspace so that could be in a temporary danger area um or it could be yeah well yeah a temporary danger it could be set up or

**[29:12]** um temporary restricted areas something like that and of course straight away current airspace users get affected by that they can no longer access that airspace and quite rightly they get frustrated so what we have done now is this Arrow Corridor is in non-segregated airspace drones excuse me uncrewed aircraft that requires service from us must be registered with us submit a flight plan with us and they'll go down the corridor anything else can zigzag through the corridor but all we'll do is those Towers have the appropriate sensors on to detect what's going on around and we'll track and monitor all the non-participating aircraft and we will turn the CR the uncrewed aircraft around and avoid what is currently going on that airspace so the whole purpose of it is this safe integration and not to have segregation because segregation isn't scalable and it really frustrates current airspec users right right thank you again Gary for that oh sorry Philip for that we have a question uh is the Super Highway in the class D airspace only is largely uh is is

**[30:15]** the Super Highway in the class GS absolutely that's where we're focusing on the moment the reason why we're focused on the rounds is that is the toughest nut to crack um classy airspace for one of a better service Bandit country you can you can get airborne you don't need a radio in your uh aircraft get it well you don't have to inform anybody and off you do is go flying so how do you know you've got all this random activity taking place how do you how do you enable Beyond visual line of site operations take place so it is the hardest airspace to manage because there's no or hardest airspace to enable Beyond visual Landslide operations but if you can do it in class G airspace it becomes far easier in other classes of airspace when there's an element of airspace management taking place so yes class G is what this was all about to enable routine BB loss operations yep thank you again uh another question we have do you have any apis available for

**[31:15]** integrating the UTM directly to cloud-based remote operation software yes we do we use our apis we publish our apis on our website for people to go in and have a look and see what they can use it um there is one API that we don't publish at the moment but it's only the one and that may be I have to ask our Engineers our team of Engineers exactly what um which apis we don't but I think if you wish to access Arrow as part of the project or Skyway we would need to speak to the program manager and our Engineers to enable that but once it's up and running then it'll be an open API to interface with us and we can activate we can they can access it very much so okay or we have another question from Gary do you need infrastructure owners such as cell phone towers to roll this out or will it all be your own infrastructure now if this is why we're working uh with BT in the UK so we're trying to use existing infrastructure we don't want to establish

**[32:17]** loads and loads of new towers it just you get huge amounts of pushback from local communities to have yet another Tower and stuff like this so working with BT they I think they have over 10 000 uh cellular towers across the UK and we'll use those wherever possible however we we have to accept the fact there will be the odd Tower requirements to uh and new towers that will be required um to establish these these super highways there's nothing we can really do about that and that purely comes down to the Topography of the land the shape of the land to make sure we have the right coverage in order to ensure or to to make sure everything is maintained everything is safe and safely integrated into the airspace right uh are you integrated with any docking stations and how can someone leverage uh the the Aero technology and auditory Angels platform for BVLOS Weavers um docking station as in I'm assuming that means um averty port a drone 30 port or

**[33:20]** something like that um what we're doing is we at the moment as the very very start of this project we do have a number of activities or a number of operators who are going from hospital to hospital so as I said earlier on we're finding the NHS is very very keen to get involved so they they will operate from their helipad at the hospital so that can be effectively averty port or something along those kind of lines there is no reason why a vertical can't link into these networks and and even if they're off the network as I say we could if there's a vertical you could probably set up a an additional Arrow Tower to to bridge the gap and stuff like this or we can as a temporary fix temporary measure we could put a mobile Tower in there um so yes uh we are in conversations with people but if people are interested in in finding out a little bit more how they can get involved would be more than happy to have those conversations so it'd be fantastic to to have further conversations with Virgin Port developers manufacturers or or anything on those lines to see how this

**[34:24]** this can grow it uh I there's there's one question so are there any uh physical infrastructure required other than the towers or the mobile Towers uh that you have that you deploy are there any additional physical infrastructures that would be required to deploy this no for the infrastructure is that there's a Communications Network that's required and that's where I teamed up with BT again and they have that infrastructure a Communications infrastructure Network so um working with uh cellular phone companies again we're utilizing a network that is already there so we don't have to set up our own networks so that is what we're doing at the moment and um yeah and we're noticing with conversations other regions of the world that the cellular phone companies or telecom companies are very very interested because they they just say it's another way of exporting their assets they have already and not having to build separate and new networks and remember if we start building new networks as I said there's other regions of the world who've started everything from scratch and wow the cost is phenomenal

**[35:27]** absolutely huge so why why would we go down that route why not partner and utilize what's there already and one last question that we have is uh are you planning to expand in other countries currently you have this focus in the UK for the super highway but are there any plans to uh do this any overseas or other countries in short yes there are absolutely we are we are talking to a number of other countries at the moment unfortunately I can't talk about those they're commercial agreements they're coming to play and I I don't know what I can and cannot say about those so I'd rather not um as I say so the project here in the UK is all around um is based on a government-funded or part funding government thing uh called future flight challenge and and therefore that's why we are UK Folks at the moment having said that we are in conversations with other countries about how we can utilize this technology overseas so it's quite an exciting time it really is and it's more and more interest in this um in

**[36:32]** this kind of Technology right so yes Philip again thank you very much for this very insightful session uh would you like to share any closing thoughts um well really um if people are interested find out more about it or to participate or be kept up to date please get in touch with altered Angel um ideally uh we have an email address previously showed up we're very very quickly fashioned up it's basically hello altitudeangel.com if you have any questions or like to find out how we can participate or anything around uh Beyond visual line of sight or anything else that we do we're more than happy to have a conversation with you guys um look we see we see this as as really providing fantastic societal societal benefits whether that is in the developing country or a developed country the benefits of having BV loss operations are absolutely incredible and and I did lucky enough to go over to um Rwanda about three years ago and to see how BV loss operations are

**[37:35]** supporting um medical um activities out there and it's absolutely fantastic to see if we can grow that the benefits to as I say to all reasons the world will be absolutely outstanding and there's something that you know we're really really Keen to get on and really push for so please any questions don't hesitate to get a hold of all of us we'll be more happy to um to answer those questions and really thank you very much for inviting me to come along today to speak and I hope this has been uh informative for everybody who's listening in like thank you very much Philip uh it was a really insightful session I am keeping on saying it because I learned a lot about the super highway and all the technology so yes thank you very much for your time and thank you everyone for joining oh hope you are having a great time at nesgen and coming up in the next few minutes are uh more sessions so request everyone to go to the sessions Tab and attend the session of their own choice see you in the next session thank you Philip have a have a good day