# Global BVLOS Regulations: How to Navigate through the Maze

- Event: NestGen ’23
- Published: March 17, 2023
- Length: 40:25
- Watch: https://nestgen.org/library/watch/GBDEWZrJx40/

> The transcript of a recorded NestGen session, for reading or for use with an AI tool. It comes from the video's
> captions; automatic captions can mishear names and terms.

## About this session

Experts from EU, US, and Canada to provide a snapshot of how regulations in those countries are evolving and how you can navigate the maze!

## Transcript

**[0:09]** thank you all right we are live um thank you all so much um so far this conference nestron has been amazing uh my name is Jason San Souci I'm a drone scientist I'm a Chief Architect at juniperon manned I am beside myself with the guests that I have today for this BB loss International BB loss regulation session we've got some real powerhouses here today this is going to be really amazing and I just want to make sure I want to make sure everyone has a chance if you have comments questions you can add them in the comments in question session and we will take a look at those um as we go and afterwards as well well let me get to Dive Right In introduce the guests uh let's start um with John damesh of Iris automation very much appreciate you being here sir we also have uh pedram nowruzzi CTO of vladis Aerospace and then last but certainly not least we have and actually we have one more as well so I'll introduce her as well we have Karen hollerbach of aerodyne uh gmbh and last but

**[1:11]** not least we also have Don zoldai CEO of P3 Tech Consulting and she will be joining us uh remotely remotely you'll understand in a minute well let's just Dive Right In because I think this is a really these are from some fantastic questions I really enjoyed it our prep session and I think if we go anything like that this is going to be amazingly successful for everyone here so let's start with the very first question and we're just going to do this conversational style right there's no no pre-scripted where does this do this conversation I think that's the best way to go so let's question number one what are the key similarities and differences be between the regulatory Frameworks for BB loss operations in the U.S Canada and Europe whoever wants to chime in first go Johns all right thanks very much Jason and hello everyone thanks for joining um yeah I you know answered my view of that question is um there's a lot more similarities than there are differences uh when you look at

**[2:13]** the the use cases and the operational uh or concepts of operation across the world you know flying is flying you're either going to transport good transport Goods or people from point A to point B you're going to observe something from an elevated location you're going to distribute something like a spray or a fire retardant but fundamentally you know you're taking off you're flying some Mission and you're going to land so so the regulatory environment that surrounds the safety of those operations is going to be quite similar I think when we look at the integration of uncrewed aerial systems into various National airspaces the differences really start to pop out in terms of the the types of traffic and the traffic density and and that's the that's the Stark difference at least you know my expertise is primarily here in the U.S working with the FAA and flying and navigating our national airspace but when you look at the distribution of low altitude traffic you know the U.S has more than 50 percent of the world's general aviation aircraft traffic and you know 50 percent of that traffic is not equipped with adsb and frankly spends most of

**[3:15]** their time flying outside of controlled airspace so when you look at that as a as a Threat Vector to low altitude uncrewed aerial operations you can see why the FAA is going to be the more conservative of the bunch when you look globally around different regulators and what they're trying to do with integrate uas in the nas so I think the difference is really lie in the geography and the traffic density and by that you know by that Force you're you're going to see a different level of conservatism across the global Regulators I personally have some experience working with Casa in Australia I used to be with a Boeing subsidiary called in situ and and we were flying scan Eagles Beyond visual line of sight in 2016. now granted we're flying over Western Queensland which if anybody knows Western Queensland and Australia there's not a lot of general aviation traffic out there so your risk environment is much lower which means the regulator can be a little bit more forward leaning take a few more risks and enable different operations to learn in a different way than than we really can here in most parts of the states

**[4:18]** John thank you so much let's let's switch things up a little bit a car and I would love to get your thoughts on this question yeah I'd be happy to I basically agree with what John is saying I do see a lot of similarities at the end of the day the the Regulatory Agencies their their job is to keep us all safe and not only those of us who are who are engaged in these operations but particularly also those of us who are not engaged in these operations so the you know the overall objective is to to keep crude aircraft safe anyone who is flying around in the skies and also keep everyone who may be uninvolved in the operations that we're engaged in on the ground keep people and property safe so it's not surprising that there are a lot of similarities when the goals are really the same and and as John pointed out it's flying is flying so the the risk mitigation strategies will be will be fairly different and certainly as a as an also a crude aircraft pilot I can I can appreciate those those um the attention to that to that level of safety I will say maybe in addition on the similarity side one of the

**[5:21]** things that work both in Europe and that environment as well as in the US environment and I will say that there's also a you know Europe has has embraced the the uis industry uh in in many ways sooner and from and also regulating it sooner and that layers on top of the regulatory framework in some sense being more developed and you could argue that that partially makes it more conservative partially makes it less conservative so I'm certainly seeing some differences as well in how how far along are the various scenarios that we're talking about we can talk about those in a little bit more detail in a bit I don't want to get too far ahead of myself there but also the the cultural how does a country or in Europe's case a set of countries together how do they come together and how do they view that culturally so I think there's also some cultural differences in in terms of what's the relationship to a regulatory

**[6:22]** framework to begin with as well as what's the relationship to conservatism around safety so I think that plays into creating some differences as well thanks Karen yeah completely agree and we're going to get to some you teed up some great questions for for just a little bit but we're going to get there I promise um for the the Canadian perspective eh um let's go I just had to do it uh Pedro what are your thoughts yeah so uh one thing that that I've noticed that is very similar amongst all is you know safety safety has been the number one key priority um and and one thing that we can notice in all of them is at one point we're trying to mesh with with the aviation so the Drone industry meshing with the aviation and manned aviation industry uh regulatory wise you know all of them are set forth to make sure that everyone's safe flying and making sure that we can mesh within the two um uh basically coexisting with with manned and unmanned Aviation so the Frameworks revolve around uh uh what the aviation industry has done is I think something that

**[7:24]** is very important but also very similar and each one I agree with Karen Uh current as well that they they're very um different in some senses as well just because of the amount of uh flights that they have over it the density of the of the areas so in Canada we can't do too many flights it's a little bit restricted because of the VV loss regulations um so you know we do need a lot of detecting void systems and a lot of different things put in place but you know all that is to make sure that the manned Aviation and crude Aviation is safe awesome uh Pedro thank you um now for an additional take on the U.S perspective let's uh let's hear from Don's Aldi are significantly different you know in the United States I think most people that may be watching this appreciate that we've got part 107 um under the 14 United States code that governs that right and a key part of that is having visual line of sight and so beyond visual on a site right now is happening

**[8:27]** by virtue of waiver or exemptions and things of this nature and um we're kind of behind honestly in the United States when it comes to that um you know the folks that are out there doing BV laws are folks that have got obtain these waivers from the Federal Aviation Administration and primarily doing it in either a very remote area or in an r d or research and development type context so that's that's kind of where we are on the regulations and you know Canada has got special uh operating certificates I believe um Canada and Europe use um the Sora the jarosora um that's that's how we're very different I think from from them awesome thanks Tom so that sort of leads to another question that I have for for this group um and we'll we'll go and reverse this time um how do these regulatory agencies in the different areas that are responsible for vivial Ops operations how do they balance

**[9:30]** the need for Innovation and growth in the Drone industry that we're talking about here at NestGen with Safety and Security right how do we do that so let's let's actually start with Dawn I'd like to hear what she had to say about this you know it's it's a tough Balancing Act uh that the FAA has to do and you know it's it's an unenviable task because everybody wants to move really fast and of course they're moving very slow right they always talk about this crawl walk-run approach um you know because when it comes to Safety in the National airspace and by the way U.S national airspaces is probably the safest uh airspace in the world um you know they don't want to risk that and so what you see is a very deliberate approach you know what we had was uh an aviation rulemaking committee that they formed up like two years ago for Beyond visual honestly they called the BV loss Arc uh about March

**[10:34]** of last year 2022 uh that group went out and and produced a 400 plus page report of recommendations uh not all of which were unanimous by the way some of which were very controversial like right away rules we should modify those to give drones or uas the right of way uh in certain circumstances and so you know people are very hopeful this year that in 2023 the FAA is going to put out something in terms of policy or regulation now the FAA's reauthorization ACT is coming due this year and you know so the question is is Congress going to direct something uh is the FAA going to come in under the wire before Congress has to do that with some kind of Regulation um a lot you know a lot of uncertainty here but The Balancing Act is real it's hard and um there's so many moving pieces and you know just the fact that the BV loss Arc

**[11:37]** report was 400 pages should tell you how difficult this uh you know this integration will be yeah no absolutely don't thank you so let's um let's talk about let's see how do I there we go um let's go to pedram let's get the Canadian perspective on this because you're also on the Innovation and growth side and I'm just curious how do you bet how do you look at this question it's it's definitely very challenging um specifically working closely with Transport Canada and the Canadian side it's become a really big challenge um at the end of the day right now we're moving forward with special flight operations certificates I know there is more the laws are changing and it's changing very rapidly um and it does look like we're moving towards the aviation uh laws of regulatory side of things and it only makes sense just because the aviation side has been around for much longer and unfortunately as sad as it sounds it's been written in

**[12:38]** blood there's been a lot of different accidents in the aviation side and and a lot has been learned from there so we're taking that knowledge and trying to bring it on this side but then the tech people love to run as fast as they can you know we get excited about that and there's there has to be some sort of a balance in between where we can we can do it safely and and also use the regular regulations and what we've learned in the past 40 50 60 years in the aviation world and bring that and join that together and on our side it becomes a little bit difficult um and what we find to to kind of counteract that and make things a little bit easier is putting redundancies in place so a lot of the systems that we build we put a lot of different redundancies not just one or two we're talking about three or more redundancies in place and that's something that has come from the aviation side where they do have multiple redundancies but again it is a little bit of a challenge trying to basically move at the space of the aviation world but also in the in the making it innovative yeah no I absolutely agree Let's uh Karen what are your thoughts since you sort of

**[13:39]** sit between a few worlds sure yeah the I I see that same tension I call it think of it as a creative tension between between the need for Innovation and the need for and the need for safety so hopefully those aren't always inconsistent with each other hopefully they can come together and move forward but the um but there's certainly a great attention there and I see that on on both the us as well as on the European side as well and I think a lot of the the driver there is certainly industry is is pushing for we need to be able to do XYZ and on the European side of course since it's really multiple countries coming together to form regulation that that is then that covers all of the the European space that then there are more drivers within that some countries may be they have different airspace they have different I mean density densities of population density is a very species they have different approaches maybe somewhat and all of those need to be melded together uh to to continue to evolve that

**[14:42]** regulatory framework so I think they're both internal pressures on that side uh that that may be somewhat different from what we see on the more our I'm going to say Unified I don't mean unified as Dawn pointed out it's it's even the the report The Arc report was not unanimous in its recommendations but I'll say Unified from the point of view of there's there's one country there one um One Umbrella under which it falls and so I think that is a little bit more challenging to create that single umbrella on the European side and yet the same basic Trends the same basic Dynamics the push pull of of how do we innovate is is really driven by the need is there we see the need the need is growing the technology to support that need is growing and then the regulation needs to needs to evolve along with that to enable more and more even as as things remain safe before I before I start or I'll stop there but before we move on maybe to John I'd

**[15:43]** like to add one other quick thought not to derail us if anyone caught my I wasn't waiting to the crowd earlier I was I was uh sort of raising one one additional point on this on the similarities and differences and that is I know we're talking here about the regulatory Frameworks that are driven by so in the in the in the US the FAA so specifically the aviation regulatory Frameworks I would say one thing that also adds one level of difference in Europe is the gdpr regulations so as John pointed out earlier a lot of missions or one set of missions is information gathering missions and so one of the things that I see play into our con Ops development are considerations of what do we do how do we handle these operations around the missions uh when is particularly when they involve sensor-based missions and they involve data Gathering I see that many more of the partners and customers that we interact with they

**[16:44]** immediately also their minds go to what are you going to do with the data so gdpr regulations to handle data privacy and protection so I just I don't want to go too far in that direction since again the regulatory discussion here is around the aviation regulatory piece but I just want to raise that as one point that I see also as being somewhat of a difference between the European environment and the US environment and I'm not entirely sure about the Canadian environment in that regard I just want to throw that out there as a for thought with regard to differences and similarities oh absolutely and that was definitely part of this question like it was not just safety but also security data security is a big piece of that cyber security is a big piece of that we heard it in the keynote that's that is a big piece so yeah I'm glad you brought that up um so sort of with the final thought on this question John yeah thanks Karen I think I'm gonna say something at the end of my bit here that ties directly into what you just said and I think you know the audience needs

**[17:45]** to understand um what is an aviation regulator's job their their remit is is really threefold um they have to mitigate air risk and make you know flying in the air as safe as possible for other people in the air they have to mitigate ground risk basically make it safe for the people that are on the ground not related to the flight operation but is happening over their heads and then they have to provide Equitable access to airspace I mean that you know federal tax dollars pay for our FAA and our airports and our airspace management ATC so Equitable access is important um nowhere in there is there an innovation remit uh and in fact you know the agency itself doesn't have resources to go innovate and try things they look to other organizations like NASA as an example to to do some of the Innovation and kind of that pioneering work to inform future regulations so things like the BB loss Arc that is the agency reaching out to Industry and saying hey you guys are the innovators you know what you want to do you know what you need to do for your

**[18:48]** businesses and whatever your use cases are so you know tell us what you need um by no means are we going to get everything we asked for in the report right like it's a wish list let's be very clear right um and there's no way the regulator could provide all of those things but what it does give the regulator is a pointer right it's saying okay they really care about this so we don't really have to spend a lot of time over here let's really hone our efforts here iterate on that I believe what we'll see come out is a series of nprms notice of public rule makings that chunk up those recommendations that were in the report and bring things into rule a little bit at a time because that's a much easier lift than trying to bring like oh my God all of those recommendations into all of the parts of the regs that you'd have to edit and change that is a dog's dinner to use a very British cliche um so that's that's kind of point one for me um point two is you also have to look at the culture of the organizations that are involved in this in this you know

**[19:50]** environment that we find ourselves in you know The Regulators of bureaucracy um there is no reward for taking risk in a bureaucracy a bureaucracy exists explicitly to minimize and mitigate risk whereas Us in the startup community and innovators that are bringing new capabilities to Market we race at it right like we don't waste time trying to figure it out and put it on paper we go build it and see if it works so you know that's a you know an inherent Clash of cultures but it's not a bad thing and I think um I think pedram you know called it outright that a focus on safety is the key to progressing innovation in these markets if we can bring the power of industry and Innovation to the safety environment well now we've got a Common Language with the regulator now our goals are aligned and we can actually start to do things that get these Technologies into the Forefront you know Don mentioned um you know airspace awareness and traffic detection and detect and avoid that

**[20:54]** happens to be what we do but if you can do that and you can enable a use case that actually removes risk from a human operation today that's a good thing now you've aligned with the FAA's remit you've aligned with Industries remit you're making the end user happy because now they have a much more economically viable means to accomplish some task so you know our view is that if you focus on safety speak the language of the regulator help them get you know what they've been tasked with done we're in a good place and then the last thing that I'll say and this goes back to Karen's comment FAA stands for Federal Aviation Administration um when I first got my student pilot's license on the back of it was a radio telephone operators permit I had to be certified to use the radio guess who certifies that the Federal Communications Commission right so when you think about gdpr you think about FCC you

**[21:55]** think about the Environmental Protection Agency holy cow like we are flying in the airspace we are not talking about one regulator we are talking about multiple so you know the regulatory side of things in a large bureaucracy is a very complicated thing but if we can find the use cases that really provides significant public benefit then I think that's our entry into service like we can now get the public behind this we get the public behind this then you have the political alignment that you need to get the agencies to work together to get to yes so uh it's it's a hard world you know it's a challenging space but if anybody's been like God why don't they just move fasting this is hard um it it definitely takes time but the public has to get on board and if the public gets on board I think we have shown that guess what we can do things pretty quickly so uh over to you yeah no John awesome um and you literally teed up the next question because it was your question during our conversation we're like yes I want everyone's thought on this so you mentioned that

**[22:58]** Clash of cultures you've already answered this so we're gonna go to the other other panelists so there's a clash between the agile technology companies and the comparatively slow bureaucracies um that are involved here it's a prevalent issue how do we bridge that Gap so let's go to um car in let's go to car and I'm curious what your thoughts are here sure I very much experienced that Gap and I actually see it as not just a technology regulatory I I really see it split into three and that is on the regulatory side the technology side and what I'll call the the aviation operation side right so we have as we are developing our con Ops and making them a reality that more and more is technology Reliant and the technology players themselves may or may not also be the The Operators of this technology they may or may not be actually flying and implementing those

**[24:03]** missions they may also be bringing together multiple pieces of technology to make those to make those use cases work and I actually see that all three of those are slightly different in or significantly in some cases different in in their approaches to to Innovation agility how they think about safety all of these aspects that we're talking about here so when I think of the three-way split there or the three perspectives I think definitely of the of the two that John highlighted and the additional Nuance in separating out the technology from others called The Operators it's maybe a little bit simplistic to use just use that language here is that there too is a uh maybe on the on the pure technology side I'm seeing companies come into the space and working with companies in the space that are their roots are entirely on the technology side maybe even entirely on the I'm

**[25:03]** an agile technology startup side and that's fantastic and I love that and the the engineer in me makes me that makes me very happy the even that aspect of it sometimes is is different in mindset from the technology or from the operator side so not all of us clearly but a number of us are have backgrounds in both crude Aviation as well as uncrewed Aviation and even there I think when we bring that background we bring some of that tradition of these are the structures that that have enabled our use of the airspace to be largely safe these are the disciplines around that these are the ways in which we behave and not this is how we think about missions this is how we think about applying Technologies these are our personal Comfort levels I'll call it whether it's personal at the individual level or at the company level and that is in some sense kind of a blend of this agile want more want Innovation and safety in the crude aircraft World

**[26:06]** safety for me is extremely personal right I'm the one up there in that aircraft I want to make sure that I make it back home alive as long in addition to all my passengers in addition to everyone else around me that it really becomes extremely safe extremely personal very quickly and I'm used to in the crude aircraft World operating in this somewhat more structured environment whereas if I'm out flying an uncrewed aircraft then especially if it's on a on on the smaller size then my mindset can be very different and if that's all I have then my mindset can be more of one in which well I can go out and maybe not quite do anything I want but I have a lot more freedom and I'm used to that freedom and so when when we bring in the agile technology startup kind of the mindset of go go go go go constant changing constant Innovation constant

**[27:07]** um constant freedom to create something then that also is a little bit different from the operator mindset of uh well where's the structure to make this all happen so I see it as a little bit more of a of a triangulated creative tension in in making that happen I like that though that totally makes sense adding the operations portion of that is is a big deal even though if we're talking about drone in a box technology there's still the operations aspect as we develop these conops so that's a great observation it's definitely a triangle um yeah let me give you a quick example if I may there's and I'm I'm not gonna I'm gonna use a an example which just makes me makes me chuckle and and it's a very small example I'm not naming any names because I'm not here to shame anyone or any or anything but it's just an example that stuck with me from a from a few years ago um I was putting together a a

**[28:09]** technology system for a particular sensor Mission and we were using one one uas model and one we're evaluating some of the payload to put onto that so I'm going to speak in general terms again because I just the point of this is not too not to highlight any any one manufacturer and I was engaging with with the one of the payload manufacturers around okay you you you your claims are that this was developed for this particular drone model what can you tell me about what this does to the CG for example and the question came back what's a CG and I thought oh okay all right let me reset my expectations of this conversation I thought well okay this is the this is the customer support person I'm talking to why should this individual know so I explained CG is the center of gravity and here's you know here's why we care from an aviation perspective okay let me go talk to engineering

**[29:10]** and find out great we're honor roll here then then the answer came back well okay got it and that's proprietary information and I thought oh actually I could just go out and put them together and measure this right I mean there's nothing proprietary about this I'm simply asking whether this is something that you could give me a your official answer and B it'll save me the trouble having to go measure this there's absolutely proprietary here and so the whole conversation stuck with me because it was a an example of here's a company from a tech space functionally you know great what they had worked well but the mindset of why do we even care about this kind of a thing why why would this customer be asking me these questions there was a significant Gap there right it was purely a mindset of we have we have a product that we put out in the market as soon as we decided that it worked with without an understanding of what's the environment in which this product has to

**[30:15]** operate and yes that was that's one anecdote but it kind of stuck with me because in some sense I see that repeated in different forms um and I think this is part of the gap of how do we innovate and and how do we make that fit within this safety oriented regular regulated environment I'm glad you I'm glad you brought that up so so Pedro let's get your fight let's get your thoughts on this yeah with or without any culture Gap shaming yeah yeah so you know it's it's really tough um I I feel like the the people who sit closer to both side which would be the operator and the regulator would really be the manufacturer that sits in the center um they that's my point of view is that we are the closest we have to abide by the regulation but we also have to create a system an environment that would work for the operator as well and that becomes really really difficult you have to think about multiple different things from multiple think about the The Operators aspect

**[31:16]** the operation aspect the usability the user friendliness and and then think about the other side the safety aspect of it from the regulatory side which is redundancies making sure everything is safe you know operating in a safe uh flight envelope and and operating the entire system in a safe way so as a manufacturer we can put a lot of things in place to help that and Aid that both ate the the regulatory side and to make them happy but also on the operation side so it makes it really important I find it really important as an organization to be very versatile and have talent in your team that know both and can both chime in something that we've done with with one of our Technologies is that we work really close with Transport Canada but at the same time we have a regulatory guy in-house I'm not the master with regulatory I'm I'm a technology geek let's call that so at the end of the day for me it's I want to rush to the fastest technology but then I have someone in the organization that says hey hold your horses that's not going to work let's think about the safety aspect of a regulatory aspect of it and then we have the

**[32:16]** operation team that come in put some forces on me on the other end saying hey can it work in extreme conditions can it work in this kind of environment that people are going to be using that technology for so I feel like as a manufacturer we have the responsibility to sit in the middle and and listen to both sides and Implement both of them to make sure that the system is safe from the regulatory side but at the same time from an operational side it makes sense as well absolutely and um just to wrap up this question because we have only have one more I'm a little sad we're almost done um let's let's Hear From Dawn and this is actually Don's question four you know Jason my my thought here is that the technology companies that are partnering up with Aviation that they're doing so with eyes wide open in other words they're going into this appreciating that there is a safety culture here that this will be a call Walker on approach uh you know maybe at least in the U.S we're in kind of in that crawl to walk stage

**[33:16]** um you know they need to be in it for the long haul and so my assumption is a lot of these folks already know that um you know now what we're seeing are really rich Partnerships though right because you know I I think even on the on the hardware side and the Drone side people are realizing you know we're all better together and you cannot do this alone and so I think as trends go we're seeing those gaps being bridged and Partnerships really coming to fruition especially over the past year um you know and I think we're going to keep seeing more and more of that but the reality is the regulatory side of this is going to remain slow um and you know the companies that are going to survive are the ones that are planning for that awesome yeah no that totally makes sense um so the last question that we have is looking to the Future so what are their emerging trends of regulations in BB loss in the three air U.S Canada

**[34:22]** and Europe and you know that will impact the future of this industry let's start with uh start with pedram for the Canadian perspective yeah so I think um something that that's becoming very apparent is the technology aspect um detect and avoid systems making sure there's redundancies um those are something that's becoming very very uh common and and being accepted um at the end of the day one thing that we have to do is we have to understand that we are living in an aviation world and we have to abide by those regulatory standards um so that that's really what it really comes down to is making sure that we can take those a standards uh and understand them very well and implement the the technology to that and not work the other way around a lot of companies tend to create technology and then chase the standards after but realistically as a base what we need to understand is that the aviation standard comes first regulatory

**[35:25]** comes first and we build to that rather than working the other way around all right John what are your thoughts on this we have a few minutes left so yeah I mean in terms of uh future Trends I think we're going to see an increasing amount of BV loss approvals that that largely track to some of the key Arc recommendations I mean we're already seeing approvals granted with the concept of shielding um and for those of you that haven't heard that it's basically the uh the assumption that says okay well if I'm underneath the top of a radio tower with my drone and I'm within x amount of feet of that Tower there probably shouldn't be a crude aircraft there because they're going to crash into the tower so you know we are we are seeing some rational kind of thinking and okay yeah that makes sense and we're seeing approvals with like a 50-foot um Bubble around a structure as you don't need a daa you don't need a special permission you don't need a waiver here you go here's your approval you can go do that we expect to see shielding mature and perhaps even become part of rule

**[36:29]** um I think you know Karen put it very well uh we can't forget about the operator and the op operations and when you look at part 107 in a lot of ways it kind of Skips over a whole bunch of stuff around those things by by putting a bubble of limitations around around the operation and the operator I don't think we're gonna see many gross changes to part 107 I think we will see a new part of the regs that talks about operating rules in the U.S for Beyond Vision line of sight but I think that is going to point to other existing parts of the regs because guess what you know we've been around 100 years we've been flying a lot like we know a lot the regs that are there are there for a reason and pedram put it well unfortunately a lot of them have been written in blood so they're not wrong and and they they do apply to a lot of aspects of this uncrewed world it's just they need to be tweaked a little bit right so I think the future of the regulatory environment is going to look more like that than some giant sweeping

**[37:30]** chains that all of a sudden makes all the BV loss stuff happen um it's not you know it's going to be it's going to be bite-sized pieces for specific use cases and I'll tie it back to my earlier question where there's a significant public benefit or economic benefit right like those are the ones that are going to be said Okay first and under very controlled circumstances to ensure we're not eroding safety of the mass all right car in 60 seconds awesome first thing I'm going to say very briefly on the previous question loved Don's emphasis on partnering and Partnerships and how this is becoming more I'll say it's even part of the trend this is becoming more and more something where multiple parties multiple organizations come together to produce something so love absolutely loved that comment from dawn the only other thing that I would add briefly to what pedram and John said totally agree on those on those comments regarding technology and maybe even build from a European perspective on John's comments around one of the things I'm already seeing is that there are predefined scenarios predefined things where as

**[38:33]** long as you are within the confines of this type of an operation it makes it substantially easier for you to get the the approvals that you may be that you may be looking for so I'll just leave it at that but I definitely see that as a trend happening in Europe right now but we and we have one more person here from let's let's hear from from dawn on this last question folks like the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma great stuff they're doing they're doing to us a new everywhere and the list goes on and on right so that's going to keep happening I think we're going to see a lot more you know kind of ship to shore maybe you know middle mile deliveries happening Beyond visual line of sight in the energy sector um I think we're going to see some larger Vehicles getting approvals I also think we're going to see of course Public Safety that tactical BV loss approval they got under part 91 we're going to see a lot more of that happening hopefully Jerome's first responder really blossoming this year and then of course drone delivery um you know is that going to be Beyond visualize like I don't think so I that's not been a

**[39:37]** trend and I don't think it's going to happen I think what you're going to see with the smaller drones is going to be more so uh you know long line linear inspections in more remote places um so I I think those have been the trends I think those Trends are going to continue and until the regulatory front changes um you know that's what we're gonna see at least here in the us yeah no absolutely and we're actually at the end man this has been chock full of all types of information I apologize we went right to the end but thank you to all the panelists very very much and thank you to the title sponsor DJI Enterprise and platinum sponsor a lot of Aerospace for alignments to be here today uh thank you all so much and we'll see you in the next panel